Unlocking the human side of Martech, with Phil Gamache

One of the biggest things that’s hit me is how we measure success in marketing, especially with something like multi-touch attribution, or MTA as folks call it. Back when I was starting out, I was completely sold on it. I’d have my VP or CMO asking me, “Phil, how do we figure out the ROI of our marketing?” and I’d say MTA was sort of the way to go. It was easy to sell: you track all the touchpoints, give each one some value, and you’ve got your answer. But after building it and seeing the results and sitting down with data engineers, demand gen people, and data scientists on the show, I’ve really changed my mind about MTA. It’s hard to argue that MTA actually shows you what’s making an impact. It’s more about creating an arbitrary credit distribution system that is often misleading and doesn’t tell you why someone made a purchasing decision.

Here’s an example to think about. Someone clicks a Google SEM ad and buys something. If you’re looking at last-touch attribution, you’d say, “Perfect, that ad sealed the deal.” But hold on a minute, what got them to search for you in the first place? Maybe they saw something on social media, or a friend told them about you. MTA tries to split up the credit across those steps (that can actually be tracked), but it’s still just an educated guess about what really mattered. My guests keep pointing this out, and it’s got me wondering. With tracking rules tightening up every day, it’s only going to get trickier. I’ve started digging into other ideas, many of which are actually older than MTA, like running experiments or unpacking MMM modeling, but nothing’s a silver bullet yet. CEOs still want to know, “What’s driving revenue? Where do we put our money next?” and I’m still working on that one myself.

Then there’s the whole world of customer data. I used to love packaged martech, tools like Hubspot or Salesforce, because they’re often easy for most companies to set up. You plug them in, and you’re off and running… As long as you don’t have too many complex and nuanced needs. After talking to folks from Snowflake, dbt, and even back in the early days with Census and Hightouch before sponsors came along, I’ve shifted my thinking. The concept of composable martech, especially CDPs really grabbed me. It’s not just some buzzword floating around, it’s a different way to see how marketing ties into the bigger data picture. Marketers these days need to understand (at least the basics of) data warehouses and transformation layers, stuff that used to belong to the IT crew. At Close, we actually ditched Hubspot and built our own setup with Customer.io, Zapier, and Segment. It was rough around the edges initially, but it got the job done for a lot of niche use cases and it was a lot more cost effective.

It’s pretty wild to see how technical marketing ops has gotten. If you rewind fifteen years, you didn’t need to know about ETLs or data architecture to do your job as a marketer. But now, especially if you’re at a bigger company, it’s not optional anymore. You’ve got to have that technical know-how to stay in the game. When I was at WordPress.com, we had data scientists building models to predict churn before it even happened. That wasn’t something I’ve always pictured as part of marketing, but it’s becoming normal. And the tools, there are dozens of thousands of them now, at least according to Scott Brinker’s latest count. It’s created new roles too, like marketing data analysts and martech product managers, just to keep everything straight.

The guests on my show have shown me how this plays out in the real world. Take Calm, for instance. Their emails aren’t just about pushing a sale, they use backend data, like how many days you’ve meditated, to send you something that actually feels personal and helpful. It’s almost like a little webpage landing in your inbox, and if it doesn’t work, it’s gone by the next send. The stack behind it still blows my mind. You’ve got dbt handling transformations, Snowflake storing it all, and tools like Census make it flow right into what marketers are doing. I never got into marketing mix modeling myself, my teams were too small for that. Europe is a bit behind on some of this, with GDPR slowing things down, but they’re getting there. The US tends to charge ahead, sometimes too fast, often trying to outrun privacy regulations, like trying to de-anonymize website traffic. That’s a no-go in most places outside the US, and honestly, I’m glad for it. Marketing’s turned into a full-on technical field these days but privacy is something that needs to remain at the forefront.

One thing that really caught me off guard was how engineering heavy channels like email are becoming. I sat down with Calm’s lifecycle marketing lead, a guy who came from an engineering background, and he totally opened my eyes to it. He used to think email was a waste, just spam clogging up inboxes, but then he saw its potential. At Calm, they send these emails that pull people back to the app, like digests of new courses or a rundown of your weekly stats. People actually look forward to that Sunday email dropping in. It’s not aggressive or salesy, it’s just useful. They lean on backend data to make it personal, and if it misses the mark, it’s out of there. He called it a “fleeting webpage,” and that phrase stuck with me. I used to see email as pretty basic, but when it’s done this way, it’s powerful stuff. Tools that mix tech and intent like that, it’s cool to see engineers get involved with martech.

Let me think about that for a moment. With around 160 episodes under my belt, a few guests really stand out in my mind. Austin Hay is one of them. He kicked off our 2025 season, and I knew he was a big deal, teaching martech at Reforge and working at Ramp. But his story completely blew me away when I started researching his background. He was an early hire at Branch, then built a growth engineering agency on the side. Grew it to millions in revenue, had big clients knocking on his door. Sold it to mParticle, picked them out of a bunch of offers, ran growth there for a bit, then built an online martech course and eventually sold that to Reforge where he became a partner and instructor. Now he’s building Clarify, trying to rethink CRM with an agentic-first approach. He’s not just doing the work, he’s reflecting on it, almost like a martech philosopher. His take is that the future isn’t about stacking up more tools, it’s about blending human insight with AI in a way that actually makes sense.

Then there’s Scott Brinker. When his PR team reached out, I was like, “Wait, us? Are you sure?” But he showed up ready to talk. He actually said of like the hundreds of podcasts he’s been on, ours was one of his favs. He’s convinced that the chaos in martech, that explosion of tools he maps out every year, isn’t going anywhere. It’s actually picking up speed with AI. Companies aren’t going to pull back, they’ll keep adding these niche solutions. Marketers, he says, need to get better at orchestrating it all, not just grabbing tools off the shelf. And Juan Mendoza from The Martech Weekly, he’s another one. He’s got this wild energy on LinkedIn, and I mean that in the best way.

Lots of amazing women come to mind as well. Some that I have the pleasure of considering friends today. Jacqueline Freedman who ran marketing ops at WeWork and Grammarly before going out on her own and recently joining Juan at TMW had an amazing episode. Meg Gowell who runs Growth at Typeform walked us through the role of a full stack marketer and Typeform’s warehouse-native stack. 

One of the main things that comes out of most episodes and what was the initial genesis of the show is that: martech isn’t about the tech itself. It’s about people tackling messy, human problems, behind the scenes. The tools are just there to help out.

It’s the depth they bring to the table. They’re not caught up in the daily grind. I love hearing from practitioners too, listeners connect with them because they’re like, “Oh yeah, duplicate data drives us nuts too.” But these folks take a step back and see the bigger picture. They write newsletters, blogs, posts on LinkedIn where they’re digging into real ideas. Austin’s story resonated with me because he just sees the industry from a unique system-level thinking.  Scott’s out there mapping the whole landscape but connecting dots and building diagrams before most even think about it. Juan’s got this no-bullshit spark that cuts through the noise of vanilla marketing speak. Jacqueline Freedman talks about martech like it’s a living thing, always shifting. And Paul Wilson, my old mentor from Salesforce, now at Mural, he sees go-to-market as something you craft, not just check off a list.

What I love most is how down-to-earth they are. No layers of approvals, no hassle. They’re like, “Yeah, let’s do it” and they’ve got stories ready to share. That’s why they’re so good at what they do. Compare that to some pitches I get now, too polished, too focused on themselves. Scott was a rare win from PR. Usually, I find the best ones myself, people already putting smart thoughts out there for anyone to read.

It started out tiny, really tiny. Just a little hobby. My friend Jonathan Taylor, he was my co-founder, we kicked it off together. I was at Close, he was at Klipfolio. We go way back, he hired me at my second tech job, a BI startup here in Ottawa. During the pandemic, we’d talk a lot, just tossing around martech ideas over the phone. One day, we were like, “Why not hit record?” No grand plan or anything. JT’s funny, sharp, and I’d been teaching part-time at the University of Ottawa, so we had some things to say. Early on, it felt like no one was listening. I had maybe a thousand LinkedIn followers. We were just talking into the void, but it was fun, no pressure at all.

Things started shifting when we kept at it. We got into a rhythm, doing episodes every week, putting out a little newsletter with takeaways from our long conversations. I’d turn the audio into blogs, play around with AI-generated images, it became this creative outlet for me. Still just nights and weekends, though. It didn’t wear me out. Then I went on paternity leave, my baby napping on me, and I started digging into AI trends. ChatGPT was taking off, and people were asking, “What’s this mean for marketing?” Our views started climbing. That’s when I thought, “Huh, maybe there’s something here.” I reached out to some martech vendor leaders about sponsoring us. I said, “We’re small, but we’re focused, your customers are tuning in.” Iterable’s CMO, Adriana Gil Miner, was the first to say yes. That brought in more sponsors, some real money. It hit me then, this could actually be sustainable.

The sponsors got the ball rolling, but making it my full-time thing took some figuring out. I was still working full time at a startup  after WordPress.com, juggling a newborn and work. 

By August, I said, “Okay, let’s go for it.” Jon had stepped back to focus on his SEO consulting, so Darrell Alfonso came on as co-host in January. He’s a powerhouse, with 50,000 LinkedIn followers, and posts that take off while mine might get a handful of likes! He’s helped push us forward, with YouTube, audio, all of it. It’s a slow climb, especially in a niche like this, but the revenue started matching my excitement. I used to dream of San Francisco startups, but remote work let me stay in Ottawa, near family. Having grandparents around for our daughter? That’s huge. It all just felt right.

A lot. But it didn’t always feel heavy. Early days, it was light, a few hours here and there. Once we got serious, it was nights, weekends, little pockets between parenting. Maybe 10 hours a week on top of my job? I’m guessing, it’s blurry because it was fun, not a grind. Turning talks into blogs, newsletters, images, that takes time. Prepping guests, researching trends, tweaking audio, it adds up. Sponsors came in, and the work tripled. Now it’s full-time, it’s everything. But those conversations? Sitting down with brilliant people? That’s the highlight of my day, every single time.

I kind of fell into martech by accident. My first job was at this B2B SaaS company in Ottawa. They handed me the keys to marketing automation, Salesforce, Pardot, and no one else wanted to touch it. I used to imagine myself heading to San Francisco, working at those big US startups. But remote work changed that. I stayed in Ottawa, close to friends, family, especially now with my daughter. That job was all over the place, but I loved it. So many chances to fix things. They had this saying: “If it’s not in Salesforce, it didn’t happen.” It was the core of everything, leads, records, you name it. I got sales and marketing talking, built an inbound flow from the website, started playing with growth ideas.

Then Paul Wilson came into the picture. He was a consultant we brought in, big name now, with time at Slack, Salesforce, Adobe, Mural. Back then, he took me under his wing. Showed me there was this technical path in marketing I could follow. I didn’t need to code, just understand what marketing and sales needed and how to make the tools work. That hooked me. Next, I went to a software startup downtown, learned Marketo, handled more traffic. Built a team, pushed for remote days. As an introvert, those quiet days at home were gold, no one popping by my desk. Later, I joined Close, a CRM for small businesses, up against Hubspot. I ran marketing ops there, even moved us off Hubspot when it became a competitor. It was like a crash course in strategy.

Podcasting wasn’t even on my radar back then. After Close, I went to WordPress.com, my first B2C gig after years in B2B. Big company, 7,000 people, tons of traffic from free signups. They had this amazing data team, engineers building tools, models to predict who’d leave, even an internal CDP. I ended up sort of managing their marketing automation platform. Then my boss there pulled me back to a startup. Around then, the podcast, still just a side thing, started getting noticed. I’d always been the quiet one behind the scenes. Now I was hosting, putting myself out there. It went full-time in August when sponsors kicked in. Now it’s YouTube, audio, LinkedIn, the whole deal. Staying in Ottawa, with family nearby, kept me grounded. Remote work made it all possible.

The interviews? Those are easy. I prep a ton, send guests a loose template a week ahead with the intro, questions, some loose ideas. Sometimes we hop on a pre-call, and we always chat for 15 minutes before recording. It’s smooth, no dead air, no awkward networking vibes where I’m stuck alone with a drink. That’s my kind of setup. LinkedIn, though, that’s trickier. Feels like something I have to do, but I don’t love it. I’m not into that influencer thing, all those catchy hooks. Darrel’s got 50,000 followers and owns it. Me? I just share the episodes, let the guests shine. Early on, I watched people like Louis Grenier with Everyone Hates Marketers. He showed me how to put out good stuff without making it about me. Visibility’s a lot, but it’s easier now, no boss to report to, just the show.

I’ve been thinking about this lately. Work-life balance, it’s not some fixed thing, you know? People talk like there’s a perfect formula, but I don’t see it that way. It shifts around. Some weeks, work takes over, and that’s okay. Others, I shut down early, hang out with my daughter, my family. That’s okay too. I ask every guest how they keep themselves going with all life’s messiness, and I’ve heard so many different answers. For me, it’s about what lifts you up, not drags you down. Podcasting does that, those talks with smart people, they light me up. Being a dad does too, even when it’s tough. Life changes, and what keeps you going changes with it. I’m not chasing one magic balance. I’m just rolling with it.

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